HUMANITAS INDUSTRY 101 PODCAST
Episode 5: Winnie Holzman & Richard Kramer
The fifth episode of the Industry 101 Podcast comes from a writing workshop with Winnie Holzman and Richard Kramer recorded on February 2, 2002.
Winnie and Richard worked together on thirtysomething, My So-called Life, and Once and Again, which they were working on at the time of recording.
Richard is an Emmy and Peabody award winning writer, director and producer of numerous TV series, including Tales of the City, St. Elsewhere, Queer as Folk, and most recently Soundtrack.
Winnie Holzman is known as the creator and showrunner of My-So-Called-Life, for which she received an Emmy nomination, and for her work on the Broadway musical Wicked and its Academy Award-winning film adaptations.
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Humanitas's Industry 101 is made possible with support from our series sponsor Sony Pictures Entertainment.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
MICHELLE FRANKE
00:00:08:19 - 00:01:40:17
Welcome to Humanitas's Industry 101 Podcast, I’m Michelle Franke Executive Director of Humanitas.
Industry 101 is a conversation series that introduces topics foundational to understanding and launching television and film writing careers.
Humanitas has a long history of presenting conversations and workshops for writers exploring craft and career issues.
Industry 101 is a continuation of that work, it includes our online event series, in-person events, and this podcast, which will present both new episodes and conversations from our archives highlighting our history.
Today’s episode comes from a writing workshop with Winnie Holzman and Richard Kramer recorded on February 2, 2002. They talked about process, collaboration, and finding a way to make your writing truthful.
Winnie and Richard worked together on Thirtysomething, My So-called Life, and Once and Again, which they were working on at the time of recording.
Richard is an Emmy and Peabody award winning writer, director and producer of numerous TV series, including Tales of the City, St. Elsewhere, Queer as Folk, and most recently Soundtrack.
Winnie Holzman is known as the creator and showrunner of My-So-Called-Life, for which she received an Emmy nomination, and for her work on the Broadway musical Wicked and its Academy Award-winning film adaptations.
Winnie was also recently honored at the 2026 Humanitas Prizes Awards Show and Toast with the Kieser Award. Her acceptance speech will be released as a bonus minisode.
Here’s a brief introduction from Winnie looking back on working with Richard, her career, and how to write without being self-conscious.
Stick around for a brief writing prompt at the end of the episode inspired by the conversation.
[MUSIC]
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;01;58;21 - 00;06;15;14
What I remember about that time is Once and Again. I mean, that's very vivid for me. But, you know, listening to it, of course, was kind of like a time capsule for me of, you know, that time. And it just brought back that sense of camaraderie and positivity. And, you know, of course, what was so special for me about once and again is that, when they got that show in the air, they wanted me to be a part of it.
I was so I felt so lucky to be able to come back and work with them again, because it had been so fruitful. And I always felt I always felt so enlivened working with Marshall Herskovitz. And it's so to be able to come back to this relationship that had meant so much to me a few years later, it was just a sheer gift and began on thirtysomething where I first met Richard and where Richard, you know, so generously reached out to me.
And there's a bit of a story there, which is that his brother had been one of the producers at one point of my comedy group back in New York City. I didn't realize this connection until I met Richard, and he said, my brother worked with you on your comedy group at one point and told me you were a good writer at the time.
That meant just the world to me, because thirtysomething was my favorite show, and I looked up to him so much, and for him to be saying that to me meant meant a lot. And eventually he offered very generously to read a spec thirtysomethingg if I wanted to write it. And I did write it, and that's what led to my entire TV career.
So Richard means a lot to me as a person and has a special place in my heart. So to hear us together talking is probably the only time that we're on record doing an event like that together. You know, it made me it made me happy to be able to hear it. Writing a psychological. All we have as writers are our psyche, you know.
Really. And the ability, the will to stay awake. And so we we want to work with ourselves and try to understand in a very private way what is going to unlock certain things for us. It's not going to necessarily be for a cookie cutter thing. It's going to be we want to get to know ourselves. What is it that shuts us down?
What is it that opens us up and helps us feel more free? And when I say free, I think when you're writing, you want to get to that point where you're not self-conscious anymore, where you're you're letting yourself be not very good. Well, you you don't want to be constantly in judgment because that's going to sort of force you to keep going.
That's not good enough. That's not that's not interesting enough. That constant judgment ends up sort of shutting everything down. So what you want to do is, you know, you're taking that sort of censorship aspect of your psyche, and you're kind of dismantling it a little bit or gently putting it to one side because of course, you know, as we all know, all of us writers know you're going to need that judgment later when you've got a draft and you want to figure out how to make that drift shorter, or you want to figure out how to make that draft stronger.
So it's not that we're never going to exercise judgment, but we don't want to do it so early that we're not allowing ourselves to just be ourselves and b b b as as kind of not very good as we deserve to be, you know, because what we do involves multiple, multiple, multiple drafts. So you can't be a draft six if you're on draft one, you can only be where you are.
And it's a process. And I think I think that's what Richard and I were. We're kind of pointing to a few times in our in our conversation. And of course, that's the kind of thing I'm, you know, to this day, I depend on these sort of words of wisdom.
Thanks for listening and I hope you enjoy it.
[MUSIC]
00;06;15;16 - 00;06;45;29
WINNE HOLZMAN
Well, you know, that's the type of question I really avoid.
Why do I write? Because actually, I, I feel like the way I could answer that question is I feel like I've always written. I also feel like I've always wondered am I a writer? And that goes on, you know, right up until the present moment. And I think that it in many ways that means you are a writer. If you've always written. Then you're always wondering about a writer. That seems true to me.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;06;46;01 - 00;06;54;06
One of the reasons I write is because somebody is always waiting for it. And it's it's either due tomorrow or was due last week. And I just don't want people to be angry at me. So that has kept me going for a long time.
WINNE HOLZMAN
00;06;54;09 - 00;07;54;11
That is so valuable. And when I meet people, I know. People who are younger, obviously, who don't have that luxury, who don't have people waiting and and aren't going to let down an entire village if they don't have it. I really I mean, of course I was that person for years, but I really forget almost how hard that is. That's the hardest kind of writing. I think when you're really that alone and no one is waiting for. It, and, you know, you get to cry at the deadline and you, you rail against. It and you never have enough time, you never have enough time. And if only you had another week. But truthfully, the deadline is your best, best friend and it's your ally. And it's for me, it's the reason it all happens. It's because something in me will just not. I'll do a lot of stuff, but I will not let all those people down. As badly as that would be. You know, I just can't bring that kind of destruction and the kind of. But somehow that is the one answer.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;07;54;12 - 00;08;10;00
And one of the reasons that I write, I was thinking about this before is head to work, said something to me many, many years ago when we were first starting to do thirtysomething. And it has never not proven to be true, which is that he said to me, write every script you write as if it was a letter to your three best friends.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;08;10;01 - 00;08;10; 05
That's such a great thing to say.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;08;10:30 - 00;08;30;22
And some of my best friends are in the audience tonight. So my my group has gone beyond three. But, but it is a way for me to I never think about the audience except the people I know who love me, who accept me across the board, and who are really eager to know what I've been going through, and that I always just sort of start a script, I say, dear so-and-so. And then it just becomes very personal that way.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;08;30;24 - 00;08;31;19
That's beautiful.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;08;31;19
That's one of the reasons.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;08;36;04
I think you told me that a few times.
RICHARD KRAMER
Yeah.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
It's true.
RICHARD KRAMER
It's still true.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;08;36;05 - 00;09;29;10
It's true. To me, the process is always about you get very lost. You get very, very lost indeed. And you have to find your way out of being lost. And I don't know about you have to, but you do. You find your way. But there's a lot of time when you have too.
Where I have to accept being lost as not only okay, but really good.
I have to embrace it and let that be alright. That's a very hard thing for me to do. Even still, even though it happens every time. And yeah, I tend to never be quite prepared. It's like, God, but I”m lost. I have no idea how to do this.
That mystery is, to me the process, is being able to live with the mystery and not give up and not get discouraged by the mystery.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;09;29;10 - 00;10;32;16
Can I read a little poem?
I thought I could save it for the end, but I'll get it out of the way.
But the poem is apparently a American Indian poem that this man, David Wagner translated. And here, here it is. It's called “Lost.”
Stand still. The trees ahead and bushes beside you are not lost.
Wherever you are, it's called here. And you must treat it as a powerful stranger. Must ask permission to know it and be known. The forest breathes. Listen. It answers. I have made this place around you. If you leave it, you may come back again. Saying here. No two trees are the same to Raven. No two branches are the same to Wren. If what a tree or a bush does is lost on you, you are surely lost. Stand still. The forest knows where you are. You must let it find you.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;10;32;16 - 00;10;50;07
That's wonderful. It's beautiful.
I always think about in terms of process. There's a quote that I love that that I use in many situations in my life, but it's from from Somerset Maugham where he says there are three essential ingredients to good writing, and unfortunately, nobody knows what they are.
[laughter]
RICHARD KRAMER
00;10;50;10 - 00;11;54;28
And for me, that becomes an invitation to begin my process, which is to sort of surrender and become empty and to stop thinking. Because if I've ever really written badly, it was when I was thinking a lot, and I have thought a lot and written very badly a lot of times. But the thing that seems to be connecting to every time that that I write moderately well enough so I don't totally discuss myself as I found a way to become empty, to just get everything out of me that I that I think I want to put down and let something enter. And then transform.
So, you know, you know, one of the things that's very difficult about writing, the kind of work that we do out here is, is there's a formula that is presented to you for success.
There are models that you have, you know, you think that there is thinking to be done, that if I can do this thinking, then this will come out right. I think that the best way to be able to write is to throw all that away and just stop thinking and just be there. And that's extremely hard to do. And you know, you can do it some days, some days you can't do it.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;11;47;06 - 00;11;54;28
But that's the goal.
RICHARD KRAMER
It's a great goal, and it's the goal you can't even set out to have because it just has to sort of happen.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;11;54;28 - 00;12;01;00
Yeah, because it's not goal oriented is not the whole goal oriented goal.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;12;01;00 - 00;12;01;18
Yeah, exactly.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;12;01;20 - 00;12;27;01
It's like a state you'd like to be in. Yeah. I mean, truthfully, I think that.
If I really thought about things like process, I really wouldn't be able to do it. It's a little bit like going, how do you walk it? Well, let me like, investigate that. I mean, is there something that you want? Obviously. Obviously you want something to take over. The hard part is getting to that state how to get there.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;12;27;01 - 00;12;28;11
And everybody has their little tricks.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;12;28;11 - 00;12;42;15
Yeah, everyone has little tricks. I mean, I do think like mentally, you know, try I try to make myself I try to feel safe. Safe to be bad is how I’d put it. I mean, if I don't have that, then I'm really in trouble.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;12;42;17 - 00;12;58;13
I start my day. When I start my day, I go to the computer and I write for about ten minutes, and I just absolutely just look at it like this. And I write every bad thing I can think of that I've been thinking about all night and then just get out of the way.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
Well, that's the same thing.
RICHARD KRAMER
For like my, my, my anti critical faculty is just killed for the next hour.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;12;58;20 - 00;13;59;02
Yeah. Totally like you want to get yourself. And then of course you know. And sometimes like this does for me just give you something. Just give you something that helps you. You know, you want to be aware when that's happening. So you don't go, oh, but I have to write. You know, like I remember at ten. I’ll just tell an anecdote.
I was rewriting. I had to rewrite this episode from scratch, and I, I was really I really felt this kind of despair. And it was too soon and all of that. And I went to a bookstore, which is something I love to do. And it's like I was in a daze and I just thought, I'm just going to be in this bookstore in a daze.
And because it was a Christmas episode, I kind of gravitated to, entertaining. And I started going, oh, I want to see funny books about Christmas entertaining. And there was, of course, there was this big, beautiful Martha Stewart. But Martha Stewart, to me is someone I have like a very strong reaction to.
[laughter]
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;13;59;02 - 00;14;26;27
It's not just it's not one thing. It's like a lot of things. It's admiration and envy. Intense. Waking, yearning, but also a certain amount of, I guess, you know, if she really that way, you know, I think it's a lot of admiration, but it's very deep emotion for me. Well, I started reading this Martha Stewart book, and this gingerbread house jumped out at me, which most beautiful, ornate it was gingerbread mansion, with several, you know.
Martha Stewart gingerbread mansion that so many, many people would wish that they could live in. And you know with a gingerbread lawn. So that episode became called “The Gingerbread House.” It became all about Lily's determination to make a really nice gingerbread house. And then what, the gingerbread house, is almost a little on the nose for me as a metaphor, but I went with it, you know, gets crumpled.
And so still, she still decides she likes it. And it was the same night that she told the kids that they were, that they were going to get a divorce. And, it gave me the whole episode because it actually just went, I am a gingerbread house. Why don't you use me?
You have to, have notice the things you have to, be noticing what your subconscious is doing and not just pushing it away going no.
It’s what you said about thinking. Cause you’re just thinking so, so hard. You cannot get to be a daze.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;15;22;17 - 00;15;37;01
And then it becomes a little dance between your conscious and your unconscious. And you're thinking, you're not thinking, but you have to produce something from not thinking. But you can then think your way through.
[laughter]
Thank you for understanding that cause I don't.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;15;37;01 - 00;15;43;07
Cause you're going to think later. Yeah, you're going to think about it all. You're never going to think again. But in order,
[laughter]
You know, I mean, it's like you're not you don't want that critical person who is so embittered and thinks this and that and the other isn't good enough to be sitting there with you when you're trying to get a first draft out.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;15;53;13 - 00;15;59;01
And you got to sit down and be the worst writer in the world, which I am every time I sit down, every day.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;15;59;03 - 00;15;59;19
That’s how it is.
That’s how it is. You know, it's humiliating in a way, but it's a good way to work, because that way you are allowing it to happen. You're not constantly judging and stopping it.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;16;12;06 - 00;16;19;02
And that's the advantage of being alone, is nobody can see that, you know, in the course of the day, because you start to grow into somebody who feels more confident.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;16;19;04 - 00;16;51;00
That's right. That's something I tell myself a lot in terms of the way I, I'm working with a lot of, you know, with people I really admire and, you know, you want to please them. You want them to like it, but it helps me to tell myself you only have to see this, you know, for a while.
You know, that's what I'm meant about safety. I need to feel very private. And unless I feel really private, I don't really do very well. Because I've got that judging thing happening. I'm all worried that I'm sorry. Outer directed, pleasing people.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;16;51;03 - 00;16;59;27
I think if for me, writing has to be almost something that's illegal. But, you know, the fact that you're doing in secret that you that you know, you know, at 3 a.m. in your cell and-
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;17;00;02 - 00;17;01;13
And it is illegal-
RICHARD KRAMER
00;17;01;13 - 00;17;13;05
-or it should be. That helps me a lot, is that I hear somebody coming and I hide it and stuff it under the bed. Yeah, that makes it exciting for me.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;17;13;07 - 00;17;32;23
I agree with that.
I'm very interested as I was trying to evoke before that Martha Stewart. I notice when I have a strong, passionate reaction to something, let's say I'm furious about something or I'm very threatened, or I find it beautiful or I find it upsetting. I like to try to write about that. It's really that simple in a funny kind of way.
00;17;32;25 - 00;18;21;02
That's pretty much where I go, because I feel like there's a secret treasure there, and I don't think about the audience, at all.
I think, I don't really, but I mean, the other day someone called me because we're doing a story had in our show that we've been doing all year where the one of the young daughters is getting more and more involved with another girl, and a person asks me, and eventually they do.
They do fall in love. And that hasn't been on the air yet, but I actually brought a piece of a piece of it. But, a person asked me, on the phone, you know, what do you think the audience will react to when they see these two girls together? And I just said, I never, I have no idea how they’ll react.
I mean, how, how would I know?
RICHARD KRAMER
00;18;21;02 - 00;18;44;20
So I think it’s interesting the way, the way when maybe the audience changes that Evan Rachel Wood, who plays, you know, Jesse brilliantly, came to us with this and with her mother and she said, I'd really like to play a girl who falls in love with another girl. And and and I don't want to do it just in one very special episode where, you know, this poor lesbian falls in love with me and I, you know, encourage her and then, you know, drop her.
00;18;44;24 - 00;19;04;13
And she said, I want to do it all year, you know, which is a brilliant thing for her to do as an actress. And, and just I think that the audiences sensibilities have changed to a degree. And that this 14 year old girl can come to us and, and, and know that as we've grown up with a more, more interesting response to what television can be. Don’t you think?
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;19;04;15 - 00;19;12;26
Yeah, that that is so surprising to me because I thought it was my idea.
[laughter]
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;19;12;28 - 00;19;16;21
But that happens a lot.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;19;16;24 - 00;19;19;18
It does.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;19;19;24 - 00;20;09;23
It also it has to do with, you know, ideas. I mean to me ideas are a dime a dozen, I think. What difference does it make? I mean, it's all how you execute it. I mean, you could do it, you know, you could do that idea. Oh, there's you know, she realizes she is involved with another girl. And it could be the most annoying thing I ever saw or you could do it and it's beautiful.
I mean, what differences make? It’s just an idea? CTruthfully, that is nothing. To have that idea. You know, I've had people say to me, you know, I know like, on My So-Called Life, I know, one of the girls who get pregnant, like, well, yeah. That's obvious. You know, they're all, their teens. Some of them are having sex.
Duh. But what? How would you bring that out? What would that, you know, how exactly would the audience find that out? How exactly would the girl find that out? What, what will that happen with the girl? I mean, that’s what makes it interesting is how you write it.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;20;09;23 - 00;20;13;03
And there's no such thing as- No such thing as a good idea.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;20;13;06 - 00;20;42;16
Yeah. I don't actually think for me that I would do very well focusing on what will sell .That it's not that I'm not even giving you that advice. I'm literally just saying if you just look at what is really does draw people and what creates a lot of interest, very often it's something that the person, the creator or the person that created it is really a feels, deeply or is confident about.
00;20;42;23 - 00;21;04;16
It's pretty hard to fake that stuff. And the other night I was watching George Lucas on television. It was fascinating. And he is a perfect example.
RICHARD KRAMER
He means that.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;21;04;16 - 00;23;21;02
Yeah, that's his life. That's his passion. It's been his passion since he was eight. He was very, very interested in mythology. You know, all I can do is tell you what I see and what I noticed about what works for me.
I'm not going to sit here and tell you, okay? You know, I think you shouldn't consider they're all the I don't know who you are, and I don't know anything about you. I just know that it's it's proven to me over and over again when I look at people who I think are doing interesting work, not necessarily my exact work.
I'm very excited by George Lucas. I couldn't have written Star Wars if someone had a gun to my head. I'm just not very. I wouldn't call it that. Why would I try to do it? Why do I want to, what about what am I going to do further? How and how am I going to attract people and get people excited about me by doing things I don't really know anything about and aren’t interested in.
You know, I write about little moments in people's lives or people how have interesting inner lives or, I’m doing it because I'm very, very interested in it. And, sometimes you know, it, sometimes fascinated, sometimes upset about it, but it's coming out of something real for me. It's not a studied approach. But again, that's true of Spielberg.
It's just that we're doing two different things, and that it was just a show that was about doing things on TV that were different than had been done.
And that's what I'm still very, you know, like when I was interested in the idea. or whoever’s idea it was, but when I was interested in the idea of the two girls falling in love, the thing that got me excited about it was, okay, we've met this girl, Jesse, this character.
We've known her now for two years. We think we know everything about her. Oh, guess what we don't know about her. Guess what she doesn't know about her. I'm really into secrets. I'm really into, like, secrets being unleashed. And I thought, that's really interesting in the moment that the character's discovering it, the audience is discovering it, and they think they know everything about her.
And I thought that was really cool. And that is really what, in my mind, whatever it was, in anybody else's mind, which is often the case, is we all have different things. We think the thing is, is the same thing. But for me, that was that. I wanted to write that very much. So, you know, that's what got me excited.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;23;21;08 - 00;23;33;24
And the wonderful thing that happens is that whoever had that idea, we all get to write it and it just gets passed off like a baton. And you get this interesting little moment, you know, in this tiny little move forward with it that you get to do. And that's the wonderful thing.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;23;33;27 - 00;24;32;03
And that's one of the things that's so beautiful about being on the series with other writers that inspire you.
So what I'm trying to say is that the two guys, who are sort of the arbiters of things, they decide quite a lot of that, but they will go a long discussion with them about where things are going. And that’s where I begged for my girls falling in love with each other.
And that's also where I begged for Mr. Dimitri and Grace. Which is something I wanted very much. Because that was all it was in my life. There was someone I knew, not my daughter, but a young person I knew, who was involved in a very intense way with a much, much older man. Who was In fact, the teacher and I didn't know the extent of the involvement, but it was creating such an emotion in me that I wanted to write about it. And as I was saying before, what I tend to do is I tend to go, how can I write about this thing that’s upsetting me?
Every story meeting is with those two guys.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;24;32;10 - 00;24;33;04
Yeah, it all goes through them.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;24;33;08 - 00;24;42;02
It's not like they're it's not like we're just completely independent. We're we're with them and we build out of that. We we create a story with them in the room and-
RICHARD KRAMER
00;24;42;06 - 00;24;52;24
There’s no way to succeed on the first time. The first thing that I've learned is you can never get it right. You can just get it done the first time and then it keeps changing. They get more interesting ideas, you get more interesting ideas because they're not-
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;24;52;24 - 00;26;27;23
It’s a process! It’s sounds mysterious, but it doesn't feel mysterious to me because of this thing that's going to sound obnoxious, I’m going try to describe it, but I do understand those guys, they understand me, they understand Richard, and he understands them. Like, I know what they're talking about.
Even like when we were talking about teenagers and Ed had this idea, he said, you know, Wick, you know, Wick has this apartment, you know, because you he had to take an apartment when he divorced Karen. But she's at Lily’s a lot now. So the apartment is empty a lot. We were talking about how I bet Eli, like, goes there to have sex.
So then we were talking about, you know, the whole idea of an apartment like that. And then we started talking about this threesome. This quirky threesome with Eli, this son, this girl Grace, who's friend Carla, and, Eli, we're getting involved with each other.
And I understood that, like, you know, to me, there's nothing better than a threesome. When I say there's nothing better, what am I talking about? I'm talking about I know I can write that. I know I can write it like I know I'm sitting here. Of course, I'm going to reach a point when I don't think I can write it.
But at the moment I thought I could write it. I got all excited about it. And that's all I want and pray for. If it please just let me get excited. So that I can go home all excited, going, oh, I know I can write that I want the next day I'm going to get very depressed and go, oh no, I have no idea. You know?
[laughter]
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;26;27;26 - 00;27;01;08
But until that happens, I feel good. So that's what I mean. It like, in other words, when he said that came to me about whatever he said about the threesome, I just said, oh, oh, you know, and then we're like, and then he feels something, and it's the lipstick.
And then I go, the lipstick isn’t evocative, you know, and I they don't mind that I said evocative and, you know, and then it's like we're pretty much finished.
RICHARD KARMER
That's the outline.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
Yeah, that's the outline. And then I have to go home and figure it out. It’s so relevant and important to remember that. That's what I mean about collaboration.
00;27;01;08 - 00;27;34;05
I mean, it's it's not just, you know, never mind Marshall and Ed and Richard and Winnie collaborating. The real collaboration that you're always there that is driving you crazy is a collaboration with the people that are going to say those lines and do those things.
And I know for me that, you know, there's a never ending sort of amazement, in the sense. But it's fascinating. Now to try to give them a moment that the love. I don't mean love in a fake way, like, oh, I'm so happy now.
I mean, something that they can dig their teeth into, you know.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;27;34;07 - 00;27;35;20
It's a wonderful feeling.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;27;35;21 - 00;27;47;29
It's a great feeling. But at the same time, you know, sometimes you offend them and and that's the kind of thing that where I really grow as a person, because I have to kind of take that in and not let it freak me out.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;27;47;29 - 00;27;53;23
Cause at home alone, you think they're going to love this and love me.
[laughter]
WINNIE HOLZMAN
That’s really true.
RICHARD KRAMER
And that never happens.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;27;53;25 - 00;28;18;08
It’s a never ending source of amazement. How little they seem to be thrilled.
I know that there's something about it that does sometimes make people uncomfortable. And I also know that there are people that are very grateful that we're doing it. Yeah. And I feel like, you know, it's just like you said, if it's true, you just nailed it.
00;28;18;08 - 00;28;26;23
I mean, if it is uncomfortable on some level. It's actually uncomfortable to make even, we enjoy it, but we it's that formulaic now.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;28;26;23 - 00;28;27;25
No, never. That’s why it’s so hard each time.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;28;27;27 - 00;28;59;22
That’s why it was almost like we didn't know what we're talking about. What we try to answer to this question. He was saying well, how do you really make it? And we're like, gee, yeah, I feel like it's a little bit of a non formula. So you don't quite, you know sit down and go let's just do it.
All we did is it all time and, you know it, it isn't like that. It's all about talking about what happens in your family and what are you really embarrassed by. And you know, stuff happens and I just throw it into the script because it's happening in my life. I mean-
RICHARD KRAMER
00;28;59;25 - 00;29;01;15
Filtered through.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;29;01;17 - 00;29;03;05
Through.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;29;03;07 - 00;29;04;26
Many, many things.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;29;04;27 - 00;29;15;20
Yeah.
The two guys who wrote the pilot episode,
RICHARD KRAMER
Ed and Marshall,
WINNIE HOLZMAN
they created those, they call them interviews. Now, every writer I like said, I.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;29;15;20 - 00;29;22;22
Want to use them differently. That’s why we objected to them too. But we just couldn't do anything about it. And I think sometimes they've been used beautifully.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;29;22;23 - 00;29;58;12
I have little rules about how I do them, and I like to find ways that I can express myself through them. Like, I did this one episode where.
This is a typical thing that'll happen to me, where I found, I think I found in my house a one hour coffee table, a book of what shall we name the baby? Now, I'm not about to have a baby, but my husband was looking at it because he was trying to write something. He's trying to find a character name.
So I started looking at this book and I was going, this is such a this is such a great book. I'm going to look up the names of the characters, I was in the middle of writing a script.
00;29;58;12 - 00;30;33;08
And they were so cool. Like the definitions of everybody's character name like applied to them. It was like weird. So I started go, okay, I'm going to use this in my script. And then I had all the interviews be people looking at their own names or looking at somebody they were in love with’s name.
And it really helped me because I, I personally need to know what I'm doing. Like in other words, I need to know what they're for.
So, that, you know. But what they were for, for Marshall and Ed, in a way I don’t know.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;30;33;08 - 00;30;38;16
It’s different for all of us. Yeah. I mean, and I like them when they're playful.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;30;38;16 - 00;30;43;22
I mean, he had a lot of fun with them. He did, and I I've had some of them. I mean, I always make fun of them.
RICHARD KRAMER
We all hate them.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;30;43;22 - 00;30;47;13
I’m always, oh, I hate them.
[laughter]
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;30;47;15 - 00;31;02;22
Because to me it's a little self-conscious. And I wouldn't if I was writing the pilot, I probably wouldn't have put them in. But if you say like once you've got them and they're sort of you're sort of sitting there with them, you kind of go, okay, well, how can I make it interesting for me. And that's something you should always be asking yourself.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;31;02;22 - 00;31;08;20
When you talk about secrets, too. For me, their the secret, secret, secret place.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;31;08;20 - 00;31;10;22
You once called them emotional email.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;31;10;25 - 00;31;34;12
Yeah. That was my my, my, my somewhat glib description of it.
WINNIE HOLZMAN
They're very secret.
RICHARD KRAMER
They're very secret. And what I would sometimes when I write them, because you have to, you know, or they'll put them in for you. You know, I just try to make it that in their unconsciousness. It's, it's like whether or not, you know, talking to an interviewer or to a psychiatrist worth way beyond their ability, to be,
WINNIE HOLZMAN
00;31;34;12 - 00;31;49;15
It’s something private that we wouldn't know except that it's just so private. That's how I think of it, sort of like. But, you know, once you sort of go, okay, I'm going to make this my own. If that's the that's the fun, that's the fun of it.
RICHARD KRAMER
00;31;49;15 - 00;31;58;12
And nobody stops you from doing that.
[MUSIC]
MICHELLE FRANKE
00;32;10;26 - 00;32;24;28
Thanks again for listening to the Humanitas Industry 101 podcast.
Industry 101 asks writers to apply lessons learned from the episode to their own writing.
For this episode, we have a special exercise based on Winnie and Richard’s conversation about getting the bad ideas out first. It will take you 3 writing days, which sounds intimidating, but trust us: It isn’t.
On day one, write the worst scene you can possibly write. Put all the bad ideas in there and execute them terribly. Give yourself that freedom.
On day two, come back and be the most gentle and loving editor you can be. Leave yourself the kind of notes you’d want to receive.
And on day three, implement those notes.
And with that, thank you for listening to Humanitas's Industry 101 Podcast. The Industry 101 Podcast is made possible with support from our series sponsor Sony Pictures Entertainment.
If you’d like to learn more about Humanitas and the work we do, please visit our website at humanitasprize (dot) org.
Until our next episode, be well and be writing.
Credits:
Host/Writer-Producer: Michelle Franke
Featuring: Winnie Holzman and Richard Kramer
Audio Editor-Producer: Campbell Moore
Writer-Producer: Daniel Plagens
Mixing/Mastering: Jeff Schoeny at Voxstop
Music: "We Don't Stop" and "Got to Be" by Mooveka
Music Licensing: Artlist.io
SERIES SPONSOR
Humanitas's Industry 101 event series is made possible with support from our series sponsor Sony Pictures Entertainment.